Subject: Cider Digest #1431, 10 January 2008 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:21:51 -0700 (MST) From: cider-request@talisman.com Cider Digest #1431 10 January 2008 Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Contents: French Cider ("Howard, John") red fleshed apples (Jack O Feil) Re: Fermentation speed (Claude Jolicoeur) Re: Fermentation speed ("Stuart Grant") Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com. Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests. When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them. Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: French Cider From: "Howard, John" Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:42:14 -0500 I asked a farmer in Normandy who sold cider out of his barn what he did differently for his "Cidre Sec" vs his "Cidre Doux". He said he opens a bottle, drinks it, and decides which label to put on. His stock of Sec increased over the summer despite brisk sales to Parisians flocking to the shore. ;-) John Howard ------------------------------ Subject: red fleshed apples From: Jack O Feil Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:15:24 -0800 For those looking for red fleshed apples, there is a crab apple called Winter Red Flesh (Shasa X Red Flesh), small with very intense dark red skin and flesh. I've used it for Apple Jelly, very attractive. When I get enough production I will make a small batch to see how it turns out and post here. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Fermentation speed From: Claude Jolicoeur Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 23:10:44 -0500 In Cider Digest #1430, 4 January 2008 >Subject: Fermentation speed >From: con.traas@theapplefarm.com >Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 05:03:02 -0800 (PST) Con, thanks for your input. You wrote : >You then suggested that changing N levels in the fruit might be a factor. >While I am reluctant to ascribe any change in fermentation speed to >factors other than temperature and yeast load, I would tend to agree with you when there is sufficient nutrients to sustain yeast activity, but if the juice has very low level of Nitrogen and other yeast nutrients, the fermentation will be very slow, whatever the temperature, because the yeast population will have difficulty to build itself and be active. You wrote: > I can at least confirm that >in tests that I conducted over 36 weeks storage of apples, that the >Nitrogen levels in fruits changed only as a result of water loss from the >fruit, and therefore increased marginally over the period. I am afraid >that you need to look elsewhere for an explanation. This is interesting information. However, knowing that you are a competent commercial apple grower, I am sure you have optimum storage facilities, probably with controlled atmosphere. My storage is far from that! I simply leave my apples in my unheated orchard house while I am absent - storage temperature in fall usually swings between 20 and 10 C, which is far from ideal. For example, the Cortland apple which normally is a good apple for long term storage in Quebec usually starts to get overripe by end of November. And when I arrive at the orchard house for a pressing weekend, the smell is very strong in the house. Obviously, there are some volatile components that escape from the apples as they ripen. So my question really is: what are those volatile components and could they have an influence on fermentation speed? Claude Jolicoeur Quebec ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Fermentation speed From: "Stuart Grant" Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:23:23 +1100 Hi all, In CD 1429, Claude suggested a correlation between length of storage (before pressing) and fermentation speed. I have a slightly different case which might nevertheless lend support to your suggestion, Claude. It is to do with when the apples are picked - or how long they are stored on the tree, if you like. Every year, I source my apples from the local university orchards - the students grow them but don't pick or eat them... I'm only too happy to assist! The apples are all Sturmers (aka Sturmer Pippin), a very late-bearing, acidic, aromatic dessert/cooking apple. I find that it makes a nice semi-dry cider... although I've never had access to other varieties to compare! The Sturmer hangs on the tree for a long time and so I can pick them any time between April (after a sunny Summer) and July (Southern Hemisphere), depending on when I get around to it. Due to access restrictions, I can really only go there once a season. The last four years I have picked the apples on the 20th April, 1st June, 20th June and 13th July, respectively. This wasn't deliberate (!), but makes for interesting (if anecdotal) observations. My procedure has been to add sulfite to 50ppm, calcium chloride to 400ppm, and PME keeving enzyme to the recommended dosage. Despite this, I haven't ever managed to keeve a batch! This is most likely because I am unable to macerate the pulp with the enzyme (because it's pressed by a commercial company for me). I only mention this because I know that adding CaCl2 essentially gives the yeast more nutrients which may make fermentation faster. I don't add yeast but let the cider ferment naturally. My observations are this: that the earlier picked batches have tended to ferment more strongly (which for me is undesirable because I would dearly like to arrest fermentation and bottle semi-dry). HOWEVER, picking the apples later has tended to mean that other bacteria (esp. acetic-) can be a problem. I'm not sure if this is simply (as Claude suggests) that stored/late-picked apples have a lower level on nutrients - meaning that yeasts struggle to predominate - OR if the late-picked apples develop a higher level on spoilage bacteria while they are waiting to be picked/pressed. Probably both. I do know from experience that it's a good idea to add more SO2 to late-picked batches to mitigate the risk of making vinegar. This will slow down fermentation even more, of course. As I said, these are anecdotal but hopefully useful observations. Cheers, Stuart Grant, Launceston, Tasmania, Australia. ------------------------------ End of Cider Digest #1431 *************************