Subject: Cider Digest #1436, 5 February 2008 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 14:35:56 -0700 (MST) From: cider-request@talisman.com Cider Digest #1436 5 February 2008 Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Contents: Backsweetening with concentrate (Charles Mcgonegal) Small Scale Yeast Filtering ("Kevin Luke") Rootstocks (#1434) (james cummins) Fruit age and fermentation speed (Andrew Lea) Willamette Valley (Oregon) Fruit Tree Growers Association Winter ("Analysi...) re: composting of pomace (Alistair Bell) Re: Cider Digest #1435, 29 January 2008 (Claude Jolicoeur) Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com. Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests. When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them. Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Backsweetening with concentrate From: Charles Mcgonegal Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:09:39 -0600 Joe, I use concentrates for backsweetening. I source them from food industry brokers. They come in 5 gallon pails, 50 gallon drums and larger. They are usually 70 brix - about like honey. You could probably use consumer concentrates from the grocery - but they will be weaker, and many are mostly high fructose corn syrup. I figure the amount by deciding how much residual sugar I'd like, then using the concentrate instead, using that 70% figure. You'll need to stabilize the product somehow. Some combination of pasteurization, sterile filtration, sorbate, CO2, or elevated alcohol. Some concentrates harbor resistant and troublesome yeast strains. I've had issues with pear. Other concentrates will throw a sediment, no matter what (strawberry). I like concentrates because they are compact to store, available on demand and don't add much volume to a flavored cider. On the other hand, they are expensive, not locally grown and occasionally loaded with nasty yeasts. Other digesters have written about using a reserve of sweet cider, but I'm not set up to store/retrieve it, and my food inspector insists that it would have to be pasteurized. Charles McGonegal AEppelTreow Winery Elegant Hard Cider and Orchard Wines >>Sent from my iPhone<< ------------------------------ Subject: Small Scale Yeast Filtering From: "Kevin Luke" Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:44:21 -0600 How practical is it to filter yeast from cider on a small scale (5 gals)? Is it successful enough at removing yeast that I can lightly sweeten and keg, without too much risk of re-starting fermentation? Has anyone had any experience good / bad with Buon Vino Mini Jet Wine Filter (or other)? It claims to filter down to 1/2 micron, which should remove (enough?) yeast. I'm looking for other alternatives to sulphiting, I have fairly nasty reactions when I drink it. I've thought about pasteurization, but I'm a little nervous about pasteurizing 5 gallons in an open kettle, and lactose doesn't interest me. Thanks for any input, Kevin ------------------------------ Subject: Rootstocks (#1434) From: james cummins Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:11:39 -0500 Dick, the note below may shed some light on the question of Geneva rootstocks. Not all stoolbeds have been harvested already, and it does appear that supplies will be somewhat better than earlier anticipated. The Geneva rootstocks have proved to be difficult to propagate and therefore supply continues to be far short of demand. In our Geneva breeding program, our primary screening was for resistance (or tolerance) to collar rot (major problems for M.26 and MM.106) and fire blight (critical with M.9 and M.26), and in the first stoolbed evaluations, we sought to reduce the problem of burrknots (serious on M.26, moderate to serious on other English rootstocks). By selecting against burrknots, which are clusters of adventitious roots, we obviously made rooting in the stoolbed more difficult. In contrast, the Malling and Malling-Merton rootstocks were originally selected for easy rooting; selecting for easy rooting meant, in effect, in selecting for burrknots. The propagation difficulties have been exacerbated by the tendency of most of the Geneva introductions to shift from juvenile to adult phase very quickly. This has been especially noticeable with Geneva 16; we often find blossoms in the G.16 stoolbed. We have found some relief from this problem by establishing new stoolbeds from either root cuttings or tissue-cultured plants. Geneva 11 does root reasonably well and does not tend to early shift to mature stage. We have had one experimental stoolbed of G.16 derived from root cuttings, and here we had good rooting. Geneva 30 and G.16 beds derived from tissue cultured plants rooted much better than G.30 from conventional stoolbeds -- but we also find a somewhat increased tendency to spines on the liners. In general, the Geneva introductions are providing improved disease resistance, better winter hardiness, and improved productivity. The price paid for these improvements has been more difficulty in propagation, an increase in need for tree support, and requirement for tighter crop load management, especially in the early years. Supply is improving and should continue to improve as stoolbeds mature. Stoolbeds of Geneva 11 and G.30 are being extended his spring and supply should be close to meeting demand within a couple of years. The new stocks being introduced -- Geneva 41, G.202 and G.935 -- will be coming on line. //Jim ------------------------------ Subject: Fruit age and fermentation speed From: Andrew Lea Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:58:39 +0000 Claude Jolicoeur wrote (a while back now): > > I have a question for those who have more knowledge on fermentation > chemistry. > I have noticed a strong correlation between the date of pressing and the > fermentation speed. > Taking the same variety, and even from the same tree, if I make a pressing > soon after harvest, the resulting cider will have tendency do ferment > relatively quickly. But if I wait until the apples become very ripe or > slightly overripe, the resulting cider will be much slowlier. It turns out that Claude's observation *has* been made before. According to Charley's 1949 translation of Warcollier's 1928 'La Cidrerie' this was noted in pears by no less authorities than Mueller-Thurgau and Osterwalder. No date is given for this reference but I would guess it to be pre WW1. For those who are not familiar with these people, Mueller-Thurgau was the first director of the Waedenswil Research Station in Switzerland (and after whom the eponymous grape was named). He and Osterwalder were the first people to describe scientifically the bacterial nature of the malo-lactic fermentation back in 1913. Elevated company indeed, Claude!! [For those who read German... http://www.geschichte-des-weines.de/personenAZ/osterwalder_adolf.html http://www.geschichte-des-weines.de/personenAZ/mueller_thurgau_hermann.html http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_M%C3%BCller_(Thurgau) ] Andrew - -- Wittenham Hill Cider Page http://www.cider.org.uk ------------------------------ Subject: Willamette Valley (Oregon) Fruit Tree Growers Association Winter From: "Analysis_Lab (Scott/Linda Bruslind)" Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:26:54 -0800 Don't know how many Cider Digest subscribers are in the area, but I forward a notice of the local Fruit Tree Growers Association. I've brought up the prospect of cider apples before and will do so again this year in the afternoon business session to poll the members about interest and potential for collaboration. Any good models of dessert/cider apple mixed orchards and transitioning into cider apple production? Thanks, Scott Bruslind Lacomb, OR 97355 please call Tommie van de Kamp to register for this event. Call 503 769-8965 or Email at: pvdkfarm at wvi.com Willamette Valley Tree Fruit Growers Association Annual Meeting *PLACE: Roth?s IGA. 1131 Wallace Road, the east side of Wallace Road (Highway 221), West Salem* * **Saturday, February 09, 2008 10am-3pm ------------------------------ Subject: re: composting of pomace From: Alistair Bell Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 09:19:03 -0800 Thanks for all the advice about composting pomace. Simply put, the pomace has main 2 strikes against it: - -the consistency of the material restricts aeration - -the lack of nitrogen restricts bacterial growth both can be dealt with by adding straw and manure(fertiliser), the difficulty comes when the pile gets large and the tractor is small :) Finding a farmer to take the pomace for animal feed is possible for us, but I doubt we can rely on that totally. I'll keep the list posted on what solutions work for us. cheers, Alistair Alistair Bell Cellar Manager www.seacider.ca alistair@seacider.ca ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1435, 29 January 2008 From: Claude Jolicoeur Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 12:38:01 -0500 In Cider Digest #1435, 29 January 2008 >Claude wrote: >> Maybe we have something here that merits a little more digging. For >> those of us that are interested in keeving and slow fermentation, it >> could be worth making some experimentation with overripe apples vs >> apples in their prime, keeve both batches side by side and note >> differences in fermentation speed. And Andrew replied: >I suggest you put it on your list for next year, Claude! I agree. I intend to do it. However, since I my orchard is not fertilised and I know my apples are very low in N to start with, I might get results quite different from other folks on this list. It would be interesting if others could do similar tests to find if this could be generalised. What I would like to do as a test is to split a batch of freshly picked apples in their prime, store a part in the refrigerator and let the other part become overripe at (almost) room temperature. Then press both parts on the same day and ferment. This procedure would eliminate the temperature factor from the test, as later batches normally get lower temperatures. Any comments or suggestions? Claude Jolicoeur ------------------------------ End of Cider Digest #1436 *************************