Subject: Cider Digest #1445, 7 April 2008 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:40:30 -0600 (MDT) From: cider-request@talisman.com Cider Digest #1445 7 April 2008 Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Contents: Cider Digest is back (Cider Digest Admin) ? ("HEATHER MOORE NIVER") UV doesn't kill yeast (lotic@juno.com) Map of all cider producers ("J. Kent") Pasteurisation (con.traas@theapplefarm.com) Sanitizing apple wash (Charles Mcgonegal) Bottling keeved cider at high SG's (stewart lucas) Exclusive cider apples (Claude Jolicoeur) Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com. Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests. When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them. Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Cider Digest is back From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest Admin) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 00:48:23 -0600 (MDT) Sorry if you've noticed an interruption in the Cider Digest, particularly in being able to submit articles. We had a significant DoS attack by the spamswine; I chose to shut off incoming mail for a while rather than try to fight hand-to-hand. Couldn't give advance warning; that would have been counterproductive. I hope we'll be back without interruption for a while now, but there are no guarantees. Main concern: If you try to submit an article to the digest and it gets tossed back at you as if the digest didn't exist, hang on and try again. If it keeps failing, check the obits for our area! No, not even that; I've got folks backing me up. We'll be back in a day or three. One real problem is we've got a handful of people on the digest who flat out don't care...they don't virus-check their machines; they surf the Web with abandon and download anything that's offered to them. Then when they get a digest, their infected machines wreak havoc on us. Kinda like the person who shows up at a big party, coughing and sneezing on everybody, "Sorry, but I couldn't miss this party!" And there's nothing I can do here, because I can't root out the culprits. I can't find them; all I can find is their germs. SO: Please, hang in there. I'll keep it going best I can. If you submit and it gets bounced back, pause and keep trying. yer patience-impaired janitor ------------------------------ Subject: From: "HEATHER MOORE NIVER" Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1443, 21 March 2008 From: "derek grout" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:54:03 -0400 I'm a licensed farm distillery, making vodka and apple schnapps from fermented apple cider. I can't add SO2 to the cider before I pitch my yeast, because the sulfur flavors will concentrate in the distillate and the sulfur is bad for the copper still. In lieu of heat pasteurization, I plan on treating my next batch of cider with ultraviolet light to kill off naturally occurring yeast and bacteria. Do you know of anyone else who has successfully treated their fruit mash with ultraviolet light before fermentation? thanks, Derek Grout Harvest Spirits Valatie, NY http://www.harvestspirits.com/ mailto:derekgrout@gmail.com Hi Derek, I'm a beginning cider maker in Valatie. I made about 8 gallons this winter. I buy your UV treated sweet cider very often. It's among the best local sweet ciders. But if I don't drink a gallon of your cider fast enough. It will start to ferment in my fridge. Could it be that UV doesn't kill all the yeast? Or possibly yeast in my kitchen is getting into the jug in the short time when I pour it. Anyway, I should come by and talk to you sometime. I'm interested in buying some sweet cider in bulk next year to make a barrel cider. Ryan Niver, Valatie, NY mail to:rniver@berk.com ------------------------------ Subject: UV doesn't kill yeast From: lotic@juno.com Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:15:09 -0400 replying to "Licensed distiller in CT". Cider Digest #1444. Mr. Grout, While UV is good at killing bacteria ("Cider-sure"), it has very little effect upon yeast (a fungus). Heat and sulfites still remain the most popular methods of killing yeast. However, there is also "sterile filtration". This will require a filtration down to (AT LEAST) 0.45um (probably smaller). That is no mean feat if you are starting with a cloudy cider. Also, you must be very very sure that your filtration equipment is operating at peak efficiency. I too have been looking into the creation of apple schnapps from hard cider. I'm not ready to deal with the licensing, regulations, and added equipment costs (maybe I never will), but I always thought that the heat from the still would kill off any yeasts. Also, wont the high alcohol content (>40%) kill off the yeast? If SO2 remains your only choice, and you are concerned with the damage it may do to your equipment, then perhaps you can add it just prior to bottling (post distillation). Peter Mitchell ------------------------------ Subject: Map of all cider producers From: "J. Kent" Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:35:20 -0000 Dear All, Is there a map produced showing all cider producers in the USA and Canada? Reason: For a tour in the future. Thanks Jeremy Kent Herefordshire UK ------------------------------ Subject: Pasteurisation From: con.traas@theapplefarm.com Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Hello all, Although I have never tried to pasteurise cider, drinking dry home-made stuff, down the years from listening, I have come to understand that some cider-makers who use this process use it very gently. It seems that any temperature above 60 C can effect pasteurisation, and that it takes a lot less to pasteurise cider (presumably because there is alcohol, perhaps some CO2, and perhaps some sulphite) in there. I was led to believe that as little as 50 PU's (pasteurising units) might be enough, where a PU is a degree above 60 for 1 minute. For example 50 PU's would be 62 degrees for 25 minutes. This is not much different to Stuart's suggestion. I would love if someone had some extra information about how many PU's might be appropriate, depending on alcohol levels, sugar levels, and other factors, and perhaps also estimated yeast loads. Con Traas ------------------------------ Subject: Sanitizing apple wash From: Charles Mcgonegal Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:34:31 -0500 Derek, I wouldn't worry about using modest levels of sulfite in an apple wash that's going to be distilled. I don't have problems with what I ferment and send out to be distilled. Usually 40-80 ppm, depending on pH. You could always knock it out with hydrogen peroxide just before distilling. Anyway, it doesnt end up in the hearts. The prevailing wisdom among distillers seems to be to hit the must/ wash/mash with a really fast, aggressive yeast (8%abv in 2-3 days) and then distill it quick. I remain to be convinced that that's the best route to cider brandy. I've fermented sweet cider that's been through a CiderSure unit. It doesnt seem to be adversely affected. On the otherhand, the in the one direct comparison I did, it slowed the wild fermentation very little - call it 25%, or one day. Another resource to ask this question on is the newly formed adiforums.com from the American distilling institute. Charles McGonegal AEppelTreow Winery Elegant Hard Cider and Orchard Wines >>Sent from my iPhone<< ------------------------------ Subject: Bottling keeved cider at high SG's From: stewart lucas Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 08:09:35 +0100 Is there anyone out there who can give me definitive, empirical based answers to to the question, 'what is the best way to bottle high gravity, _keeved_ cider without inadvertently making a bomb?'. Is it enough to allow the cider to stabilise, maybe at a gravity of over 1.020, and then bottle? I attended a small presentation from a fine Anglo/French cidermaker Adam Bland last year who said, 'You must now choose the final bottled gravity. For example, if you want to bottle at 1020, rack the juice off the sediment at 1030. You now want a fermentation of no more than 3 degrees every 10 days, ideally 1 or 2 degrees. If at 10-15?C, it drops no more than 2 degrees in 10 days, you can bottle, and there'll be just enough fermentation to give some fizz. If it's too fast, rack again at 1022 and hope for a slower fermentation. You can also filter half the juice at 1022 to reduce the yeast population.' The key thing here appears to be the dropping of 1 to 2 degrees of gravity over 10 days at 10-15C. Would anybody like to comment on this? The other things I would like to know are, after the cider has stabilised and put into champagne style bottles, what type of closures are best [safest]? Is it OK, for example, to wire on a champagne style cork or should you put on a standard 29mm cap so excess pressure can 'leak'? After all this, is it then dangerous to store the bottles horizontally? All this seems to fly in the face of standard wisdom that anything with a gravity over 1.010 cannot be bottled safely, but I've tasted very sweet French, Normandy style bottled ciders. I have about 350 litres each of keeved Dabinett and Yarlington Mill cider, which have been fermented with natural yeasts [they work well here in Wales]. They are very fermenting very slowly [currently around 1.030 - 1.045 from 1.058 after 130days] and look like they will be ready May or June. I have non-keeved ciders which I am happy to allow to ferment to below 1.010 before I bottle, but I just dont think the keeved ciders are going to get that far and to be honest, I want to preserve all that delicious natural sweetness. I am looking for solutions that do not involve pasteurisation. I apologise in advance if this subject has been covered in this way before. Stewart Lucas Blaengawney Cider Wales UK ------------------------------ Subject: Exclusive cider apples From: Claude Jolicoeur Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:38:47 -0400 This message is to tell about 3 exclusive apples that I use for my ciders. They are exclusive in the sense that they are apples that I discovered and I haven't propagated them much yet. After many years of using them, I think they have enough merits to be tested in other locations than my orchard. First, here is a description of them: "Douce Charlevoisienne" (Charlevoix Sweet in English) is an apple that I collected in the village of Baie-Saint-Paul, county of Charlevoix, Quebec. It appears to be from a seedling rootstock that overgrew the grafted variety. This apple could be classified as a sweet or as a mild bittersweet, suitable for early season cider. In my orchard, about 50 miles NE of Quebec City, zone 4, I normally harvest it during first week of September and press it about 2 weeks later. This is about the same timing as Bulmer's Norman and Breakwell's Seedling. Since 1992 when I first pressed some of these apples, I have obtained juice with a S.G. ranging from 1.047 to 1.057, and titrable acidity expressed as tartaric acid from 0.25% to 0.4%. These numbers are quite comparable to those I have obtained from the Bulmer's Norman, although the latter is some years slightly higher in density and in acidity. Douce Charlevoisienne is a very handsome apple that reach about 2.5 inches across, it is conical in shape and striped orange-red on a greenish background. It is productive annually, vigourous and hardy. In my orchard, it gets very little scab even if I don't spray. It is also one of my most efficient apples in terms of yield of juice per weight of apples. The juice has an excellent flavour with a mild bitterness - it is not very interesting to drink nature because of the lack of acidity. The only drawback I find to this apple for cider is that I would prefer a higher sugar content. "Banane amère" (Bitter Banana in English) is from a huge multi-trunk seedling tree that was growing on my property when I bought it in 1982. This tree is about 50 feet high and its lowest branches are still too high to pick even with a ladder! So I pick the apples on the ground when they fall, usually by end of September or beginning of October. This apple is unedible, it is extremely bitter with a banana aroma. It could be classified as a full bittersweet. Since 1994, juice density has ranged between 1.055 and 1.062, with acidity between 0.15% and 0.35%. Those numbers are comparable to those I have obtained from the Yarlington Mill apple, which, of the apples that I grow, is the most similar. Banane amère is suitable in late season blends, mostly with table apples that have a lot of acidity and no bitterness. It adds a lot of body and tannin to the cider and should not be used in a ratio exceeding 25% of the blend. The apples normally reach 2.5 inches across and are mostly green with a bit of pale red. The juice yield is not very good and the juice obtained is very thick and very dark brown. Some years it gets scab fairly badly, but most years it is almost clean of it. "Bilodeau" is a crab apple that I obtained from Mr. Claude Bilodeau. He got it from a nursery as a tagging error as this tree was supposed to be of another variety. I have never been able to know if it is a named variety and to identify it. It mostly looks like the Robin crab, but it has some notable differences. This apple ripens with the Douce Charlevoisienne and I usually harvest and press them together. I started using it in 1996, and since then, the juice obtained has had a S.G. ranging from 1.066 to 1.073, with titrable acidity between 0.8% and 1% (which is very reasonable for a crab). It also has a noticeable amount of tannin. Actually, this apple makes a perfect blend with Douce Charlevoisienne as both apples complement each other very well, Bilodeau bringing the sugar while Douce Charlevoisienne mellows the acidity and adds its mild bitterness. The cider that I presented last December at the GLOWS competition was mostly made from this blend - it earned a bronze medal. Bilodeau is a small apple, usually 1-3/4 inch across. It is very beautiful, bright yellow covered with a nice red, sometimes with a little russet. It never gets any scab, but the curculios seem to go for them and I sometimes have to accept small crops. It's other drawback is that it is a favorite of all the family and some years there is not much left for the cider! The juice yield is good and the tree is hardy and vigorous. I have posted some pictures of these apples - they may be seen at: http://picasaweb.google.com/cjoliprsf/ExclusiveCiderApples and, for those interested, there are a few other albums, including some pictures of the orchard, at: http://picasaweb.google.com/cjoliprsf In conclusion, I think these 3 apples are interesting alternatives to the use of European cider apples which may not adapt well in some locations, mostly the colder locations with short summer. If some of the readers of this digest are interested in testing them I can send some grafting wood this spring. Note that I have no idea on how many of you will respond to this and I have limited amount of wood. So, I will figure things when I get a feedback... You may contact me directly at: cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca Claude Jolicoeur Quebec ------------------------------ End of Cider Digest #1445 *************************