Subject: Cider Digest #2067, 13 April 2017 Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:33:29 -0600 (MDT) From: cider-request@talisman.com Cider Digest #2067 13 April 2017 Cider and Perry Discussion Forum Contents: Digest 2066 blocked for some (Cider Digest Admin) Re: Cider Digest #2065, 1 April 2017 (Jon Notz) Cider Digest (jejanicke) Don't change! (Jahil Maplestone) Re: Cider Digest #2066, 5 April 2017 (Michael Zercher) comments on Cider Digest future (& Misc) ("Dana Glei") Re: suggestions for finishing up an ice cider (Dick Dunn) NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one. Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com. Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests. Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider#Archives Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Digest 2066 blocked for some From: Cider Digest Admin Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 12:04:56 -0600 Overzealous (i.e., broken) spam filters blocked Cider Digest 2066 (5 April) for perhaps a few dozen readers. If you missed it, you can pick up a copy from the archives; see www.talisman.com/cider/curyr There was no actual spam in the digest. - -- Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Cider Digest #2065, 1 April 2017 From: Jon Notz Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 12:14:10 -0500 Dick, We should really think about starting a Facebook page. It would really be sad to see this interaction gone. It had been an invaluable resource for me and I'm sure it has been for many others as well. There are so many knowledgeable/experienced good people on here. Check out Milk the Funk on Facebook (deals with mixed fermentation). I think this would be a good setup. They have a wiki also, which is really nice, because it keeps a log of pertinent information that has been discussed. Anytime I have a question I just punch key words/phrases into the wiki search and usually the answer is there. Up to this point I've mostly just been a reader of the cider digest but I just ordered a bunch of trees and will be starting a good sized orchard. I plan on getting juice from a local orchard (and mixing in some crabs) this year and in subsequent years to make cider with until my trees start producing. I will have tons of questions along the way and will be more active in the future, especially if it was on a Facebook page. Thanks for all your hard work! Jon ------------------------------ Subject: Cider Digest From: jejanicke Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 12:56:17 -0600 Howdy All, I find the CD interesting and great for its educational content. There is much to learn from others questions and replies. If someone needs an immediate reply they should go to the standard references like Lea or Jolicoeur. Being an old dinosaur I avoid all this social media like the plague. Hope you will stick with email because it is, is ideal. Thanks for your efforts, they are appreciated, Joe Janicke ------------------------------ Subject: Don't change! From: Jahil Maplestone Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 01:03:40 -0400 Don't move to Facebook please! I'd hate to have to sift through all the rubbish there to get my digest fix. This is a great format even if it is hard to quantify the readers. There are many who never interact so you'd be surprised how many people appreciate and value it. Thanks! Jahil Maplestone 1-347-907-9713 jmaplestone@gmail.com ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Cider Digest #2066, 5 April 2017 From: Michael Zercher Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 11:30:02 +0000 Hi Dick, Re continuance of the digest, I have referred to both the digest and the workshop's forum regularly. There is little cross posting, but I must admit that when I've posted questions in the past it has mostly been to the workshop. I did that because posts in that forum seem to elicit more responses -- although when someone gets a response on the digest the quality is usually as good. I'd attribute that difference in responses to the somewhat archaic format of the digest, which may be unapproachable to people whose online experience is mostly email, websites and social media and has never been Listserv. The downside to the workshop is that it is UK focused. I tire of the whinging and backbiting among those folks and the incessant questions of EHO visits. However that's usually easily overcome by skipping those posts. I think there is a place for a US-based, US-focused cider forum. I have tried posting to the USACM's google-based and website-based forums without getting any real response. Perhaps the digest could fill that niche, but do it more effectively on a new platform. There are no shortage of available platforms. Among others, there are these... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.entrepreneur.com/amphtml/247541 I would stay away from Facebook. It's a messy, closed environment that incessantly pings its users. A moderated forum on a cloud based platform (like the workshop) seems like a better option. Contrary to one of the posts below, Google's forum platform does have the options of sending digests or individual posts by email, so you never have to visit the forum page, if you wish. However migrating the digest to Google might be confusing to the end users because of the presence there of the workshop as well as USACM's "[uscider]" forum. If it were me in your shoes, I would decide first how much I want stay involved in managing an online forum. I would then talk to USACM and the workshop moderators about the current forum landscape and how it could be improved for US cidermakers. They may have good suggestions or none at all. With all that plus the comments from the digest readers, the next steps would be clear hopefully. Finally, thanks for maintaining the digest this long and more generally many thanks for being an active participant in and supporter of the rest of us and the cider industry as a whole. You've done a lot! All the best to you! Mike ------------------------------ Subject: comments on Cider Digest future (& Misc) From: "Dana Glei" Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:16:11 -0700 Dick, I will 2nd the preference for the "push" nature of the digest rather than the "pull" style. I don't want to waste my time checking Facebook every 10 minutes. I like that the Cider Digest comes to my mail box, and I can read through it when I have the time and inclination. But, I am a dinosaur I suppose. I joined Facebook kicking and screaming. Darlene Hayes, I have one comment that is somewhat related to Darlene Hayes' posting "suggestions for finishing up an ice cider". I don't know much about making Ice Cider (other than what I have read in Jolicoeur's book and what you have told me, Darlene, about your ongoing experiment). But, I will say that I like the idea of cold crashing much better than pasteurization. I realize that pasteurization is a sure thing, but I think it will destroy the taste of your cider. Do you remember that cider you had us taste at your Cider Sense class last fall that tasted so "cooked"? I fear you will end up with something like that. I have never tasted a pasteurized apple juice that I liked. I can tell you based on my family's experience making sweet cider for nearly 100 years, that pasteurization destroys the taste of a good sweet cider. When the whole E. coli scare happened (back in the 1990s?), my family struggled with what to do. They did not want to pasteurize because my Dad knew it would kill the taste. But, they couldn't keep selling raw cider (because the grocery stores would not accept it). They ended up opting to use the UV treatment because they found it did not compromise the taste (to a noticeable extent), but it did the job with respect to E. coli. Tom Allman, See above my thoughts re: pasteurization. I *think* that most commercial cideries use closed-system filtration (and treatment with sulfites) to stabilize their ciders (that are not completely dry). Regarding your question about carbonation, how long have you allowed for bottle conditioning (you may need to give it more time)? And at what temperature did you store the cider you were trying to bottle condition (I think you need to store it for a while at a warmer temp-like 70F-when you are trying to bottle condition). I have only used bottle conditioning and have not had any problem getting the level of carbonation that suits me. But, I don't like a LOT of carbonation. I want something more petillant than sparkling. I use fresh (unfermented) apple juice for priming a cider to be bottle conditioned. Based on the SG of the unfermented juice and the FG of my cider at the final racking, I compute how much of the unfermented juice I need to add to each bottle to end up with approx. SG=1.005 at bottling. After a few months of bottle conditioning (at 65-70F), I seem to get plenty of carbonation (and haven't created a bottle bomb). The only downside is the sediment in the bottom of the bottle. But, that doesn't bother me too much. I have talked to some other cider makers who prefer to keg their cider and then used forced carbonation. That avoids the sediment problem, produces a consistent end result, and it avoids all the work of bottling. Cheers, Dana Glei Budding Cider Maker in Sonoma County, CA ------------------------------ Subject: Re: suggestions for finishing up an ice cider From: Dick Dunn Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:27:36 -0600 In the last digest, Darlene Hayes wrote about her ice cider attempt... her numbers, and idea: > ...The SG is at about 1.090 now and I'm planning on taking it to > 1.086 for a final alcohol content around 11%. My plan all along has been to > cold crash the fermentor in an extra refrigerator set to it's coldest > setting, then rack it off for the final time. Does anyone have any other > thoughts on how I might stabilize the finished cider?... Cold-crashing is more of a brewing technique, although it can do some things with cider. But I wouldn't recommend it for "stabilizing". Keep in mind that brewers are dealing with higher sugars which yeast have trouble fermenting, whereas all of the sugars in a cider must are fermentable. Also consider that you may be keeping the ice cider in bottles for quite some time, unlike -most- (not all) brewing situations where the beer is being cleared to ready it for near-term drinking. Cold-crashing won't get rid of all of the yeast, just most of it...which is a trap, actually, if fermentation re-starts: It might take off slowly after you've forgotten the possibility. Why not let your cider continue fermenting until the yeast have gone dormant or been starved out? At 11% abv you may be close anyway. - -- Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA ------------------------------ End of Cider Digest #2067 *************************